TGGuide TeaRoom Chat
Sun 03/02/97
RELATIONSHIPS, TRANSITIONS, and BEYOND
Thanks to Rosie for editing this chat to archive format!
OUR HOSTESS FOR TONIGHT
RANDI DENNIS
Welcome everyone to the Sunday Night Chat....tonight our topic will be relationships.....as always.....nothing is out of bounds.....but let's keep it with within reason
Hi Randi!!!!! Hugs, thanks for the invite!!
Most of all let's have a good time
Hi Randi, how are you this evening
Malana Greetings!!!!!
and to you Allison.....How are both of you?????
doing just fine thanks Randi, things are starting to move along a bit quicker than a snsils pace finally :)
Here just had a restful day
Hello...
folks just wondering....has the transition hindered anyone here in finding a relationship?
So Randi, I guess a good place to start a conversation about relationships would be with yourself, your engaged I believe. How has the whole experience affected your relationships and feelings for others.?
Oops, that last anymouse was me! Hi HeatherB!
Back in about an hour.
Heather and AnyMOuse....hello..and welcome to the chat.....opening question was up top
I'm here. *smile*
This is like to weard.. Randi.... I think I am finding my self geting in to one.. You may have herd me speak about Tim to Vik In the Kaffe House from time to time..
Hi all! (is that an echo delay of 4 minutes I hear?)
Allision I guess I will.....Allie and I are very unique in that we are both M to F....and we are interracial.....met on the internet in June 95......but beforehand...I was invloved with another M to F but in retrospect that would not have worked.......too many problems
Hehehe, Randi, you got to be kidding. Ok, For the benefit of all here, I will NOT give a history of my love life. I will just say that I have yet to meet a woman who is looking for a wife. *smile*
Heather I am happy about that....do you both have something in common????? Here in spite of the fact that were are from very, very different backgrounds....Allie is from western Maryland...I am from Brooklyn.....there were and are a lot of things we have in common
It seems to me, that many TG prefer the company of other TG's as opposed to John Q Public, and also MTF's tend to have relationships with other MTF's or GG's as opposed to a hetro relationship??
Teri ***HUGGGSS**** just being honest about how things came to be....
Hmm, well I don't know, I used to know a woman who was interested in me a couple of years ago, she knew about me and the transition, but the relationship has not gotten anywhere, but I'm not sure if it was the transition (I have some suspicions about it being that) or if it's just that she went to live in NH for school. She has recently returned to this area, and a mutual contact has informed me that she would like to call and talk or meet up some time. By the way she is BI, so she has told me that she has no prblem with a relationship with someone like me no matter where I end up in the gender spectrum.
that is very true.....TG people seem to need the company more because of the shared experiences and patterns
Just kidding , Randi. But I am the worst of all people to talk about relationships. It is probably better that I just listen.
so does it then follow that being a lesbian TS is more the norm rather than a hetro TS??
Kimberly do you think that she will want to persue the relationship further?
Well Randi.. I guess so I dont know yes. I have known tim for a long time. before and after if you will. and he works for me. We have always been good friends. and yesterday he asked me out. on a date today... Not so much a Togather ,B friend G friend date just some time out. He is Hetro bus today as he droped me off I think He wanted to kiss me. and I realy wanted him to. but We both kinda just sat there and looked at each other for the longest time..
In my experience...yes, that would be the case Allison.....
And I am not sure what to do. Should I make a move or should I let him Cet comffey first???????
Teri, I know you are busy know but when you get a chance...i did send an email dear...I am gone for now.
It's difficult to say, she was quite distant in her attitude towards me just before she left, she is quite busy lately with school and her new job and such. I gave our mutal contact my E-Mail address and phone number, so I guess it's up to her to contcat me as I only know of where she works and have no other info on her now (I lost track when she moved away).
Heather the important thing is that he cares about you and resepects you as a human being........Alliosn...the one thing I will tell you about those I have been around.....the reason for my invlovement and happines with those who are T's has to do with the commonality of backgrounds
if we had of been born genetically female, would not (most) of our relationships of been hetro. There seems to be difficulty in altering ones perception of a mate, more so than altering ones gender?
Heather it depends....my thinking would be to for him to become more comfortable with you explore your backgrounds
Allison interesting point...I think I would be more attracted to males if I were GG....anyone else..
or would we be attracted to dare I say butchier females???
I've been strictly hetro all my life, now, I don't know if I'm afraid of having a relationship with a man some day, or sfraid of not having one??
Vickie, I responded to your Email, dear, but it was returned. Your return address was wrong. *smile*
seems an interesting proposition
I think I would have been lesbian Allison, as for as far back as I can remember, I have not cared much for the way men treat women. This was back in the mid-70's and things were only starting to open up slightly towards equality, but I always saw the imbalance of mentalities as wrong. (I was somewhat enlightened as a 10 year old, geez, what happened to me, I'm a total dope these days, GRIN)
Randi... I have known him for about 10 years... and only known him well for about 2. We have been good friends even after the transistion. and some what closer I think.He just got the Big !D! From his wife. and has only been pointed tward GG....But for the last month we have become close...The thing that bothers me is What If it works out. I still have 4 Months to go before I can eaven go through SRS....And I would not do any thing as I am Now. So what should I do. If things go my way whith Tim???
It would depend on the man hon
Hmmm difficult questions demand difficult answers, like are there any TS nuns, there's an option I haven't explored LOLOL
hello all
Heather...do you love for who he is and does he love you for who you are????
Hello Doc
In my prior relationships...since starting transition..I prefered those who were T....ans where I could not only have a few of my [male] interests still resident.....but where I can also be feminine as well
Allison, there certainly ARE TS nuns.
Kimberly, "the way men treat women" is pretty broad, in any past relationships, I think you would be hard pressed to find a GG that didn't think they were treated well by me. If you wanted to generalize, you could also add " the way women treat men", I've seen the way some friends are treated by their wives. Worse than any man ..
Actually, I think I should have pt in that last statement that I just don't see what women see in men, I have always seeen most of them as repulsive both physically and mentally (I just don't understand things like machismo, cars, sports, ect.)
I can also say that when it comes down to intimacy it is better to be around a fellow T
Randi. I love him. But I dont know What he realy thinks of me deep down.
Teri, I meant is as a joke, but I'd really never thought about that before. Why shouldn't there be Ts nuns really.
Kim it took transition for me to that as well
not all men are like that kim
Well I need to run. SeYa ......Have a Grand Night...
Heather J Told me of a Sister Mary Elizabeth, Allison. Randi, might know of her.
Heather...have you asked him to be honest about his feelings towards you??
randi why do you feel that G men or women can not be intimate with a T
Kimberly, I agree that a men can be very ummm formitable physically, but mentally, each one is as different as each woman is different.
Teri Yes I know of her......Doc I will agree to an extent.......Heather....email me let's talk later
Randi, have you ever talked with Heather J about Sister Mary Elizabeth, an Episcopalian nun?
Doc, I didn't hear Randi say that G men and women can not be intimate with a T. She is only speaking of personal preferences.
Doc I might have mispoken...what was meant ws that because of the fact that there are parts in common...intimacy between T's would be easier to achieve when both partners have things in common
but there are some men and women attracted to T's that may find it just as easy to be intimate
I know I put that into too much of a generalization, and please don't be offended by it, I really don't believe ALL men or ALL women be lumped into any one category, I also was refering to the mid-70's when things were much different than they are now, I would not say the same things about gender today as I used to see demonstrated by the majority back then.
Randi and all..great conversation!!
Randi, all the relationships that work for anyone are based on common interests and mutual respect, I just don't understand why the common interest would be the gender issue when there is so very much more out in the world to be of interest to people. I know the gender issue looms large for myself, but it's not everything i a
I mean it is easier to be intimate without there ebing false expectations
ok kim i'll let you talk your way out of that one tonite *grin*
Allison...the common bonds that T's have make it easier to tlak about things and can help the relationship to grow....also....it means that someone does not have to explain themselves everytime
I think that it should be said that we here tonight have a variety of personal preferences whigh we should feel comfotable in sharing without letting that cloud the issue of honest, loving relationships. Remember, Romance is entirely subjective.
Kimberly, please don't worry about offending me, many have tried....few have succeded LOLOL It's all just part of a learning and questioning experience for me. Here on Sundays especially, is somewhere where the fluff if left behind and the issues come out for a change.
what do you mean explain themselves everytime randi?
I have had to do so so often I have become the Shell Answer Mistress
what have you had to explain? who you are? Sex? what to do sexually? what??????
I'm going to give this topic thing one more chance. What is it tonight?
such as: what is transition, how long have you ben doing this, did the medication effect your drive...that sort of thing...
Relationships, Denise.
Denise we are talking about relationships
I'm kinda weak in that area. Afraid to even think of having a relationship at this stage.
Denise dear, hello :)
hello denise
Hi Allison
Doc not many out there are as ....'educated' on the issues facing T's as fellow T's
Hi doc, randi, teri
I feel the same way, Denise, but this is all very good information. Stick around. *smile*
Randi, I'm not calling anyone for their personal choices, I only present these questions for myself and my interests. If we tend to stay within our own groups when seeking relationships, are we not then having relationships because of the gender issue, and not inspite of it.
Denise honey we have all been afraid
randi this is true but shouldn't segregate yourself just to T's im sure there are many GM how are educated also
Allison you are right...but that can be said about religion or ethnicity
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to put those things that way, I seem to put my foot into my mouth every sunday night. I know I made some a bit upset about age a while back when I made the observation that the local gender group seemed a bit sparse for the under 40 crowd, and now I'm making sexist remarks when I didn't mean to, UGH! Hmm, why does this foot taste like vicks chloraseptic?
However Doc....the chances of securing a relationship become less outside of the community
doc, I don't think anyone who hasn't spent thousands hours wondering and worrying about their gender can really be educated on the subject it's far to broad and subjective to try and explain a feeling. I mean, how do you answer the big question "Why"? I sure can't even begin to answer it for myself, let alone explain it to someone else.
Kim.......you are not a sexist..and you do not have foot in moth disease
Kimberly, do what I do, just change feet every now and then. LOL
Foot in moth, now that cracks me up! Love typos sometimes.
Allison that is why someimtes it is better to be with a fellow T
It is true what Randi says, when she says that T transexual can understand what it is like to be transexual better than ANY non transexual. I do not believe that this is the ONLY aspect of a relationship. But what she has said is perfectly common sense. And that is ALL that I've heard her say about it. I don't understand why people are picking this apart.
My point ( I guess) is are we not limiting ourselves that way. There are many many (ok a couple Kim) of find men and women out there that any T would be proud to have a relationship with.
Doc....what is your viewpoint?
i agree but if that person outside the T community is attracted to you knows your a T maybe they not wondering why?
Kim, I love what you say, dear. *smile*
Teri, if you take a subject, pick it apart, toss it around and put it back together, you'll have a better understanding of the whole subject.
Exactly Allison
(=-Hello everyone i'll watcha while and see what going on
Well having two XSO's, maybe I should just watch and learn LOL
i think that there are many gm gg that are understanding and would love to be in a relationship, there is more than just gender as an issue just like in any other relationship
While I am being apologetic, let me also apologize to anyone who might have been offended about my comments the night of discussion about group meetings, it seemed somehow that my observation of the age-split got some a bit upset.
I understand, Allison. I guess I'm just being a bit defensive of Randi. My apologies to all. Sorry, Randi.
doc, exactly my point, gender is a very small part of the whole.
Teri, it's nice of you to try and defend Randi, but I hope nobody thinks I'm attacking her, or her values. These are just questions I have thought about.
thats was me on the post about watching for a bit
doc things are easier when one does not have to explain
I might not be suffering of foot in mouth disease, but I am suffering of a shrunken head (Grin, and just kidding)
Gender to me is a very LARGE part of my makeup. It is a part of WHO I am.
doc things are easier when one does not have to explain
How true Randi ... Now Kim that was last week forget it Hon
Of course not, Allison. Again, I apologize, dear.
that is ok .........we had a stuck machine here....Let me ask those who have had relationships prior to Transition........would they have understood your T-status??
Is it really Teri, how much of your day is spent on non-gender issues and activities. I know that we tend to think about gender a LOT more than the average Joe, and so we should. But what I want, in the end, is to be an average everyday woman, and to live a life as free of the gender issues as possible.
Allison my exwife told me she could live in a lesbain relationship
Hi, Gayle.
I think XSO #2 would of been supportive if I had let her have the chance.
because I know mine would not have
i think if your attracted to the person it shouldn't matter if your going to have to explain
Hi Teri HUGS hows thing?
Gayle a rarity.....not many would ahve
what about men that are attracted to T's would they not be understanding
Foir example....the last person I hade a psuedo serious relationship with....prer-transition would have killed me
Personally, I don't see the attraction of a GM to a pre-op, I mean, what are they getting out of the relationship that they couldn't get out of a relationship with another GM, without the gender baggage coming along.
Honestly, Allison, most of my day and weeks and months have been spent on gender issues.
Randi, as I said, I once had a fiance but she was not looking for a wife. We used to fight for the bottom position. *grin*
As long as she was aggressive things went fine. But I'm afraid that she did not feel fulfilled when that got old.
Doc....that could be because of the exotic factor
Teri I am sorry hon...
I know Randi....I have number of GG friends but all have said the same it would to hard to live that way.. Now I also know a few Lesbians that would love to live with me
I have found that the men who have contacted me saying they are attracted to T's simply want sex, there is nothing relational about their desires at all.
yes i agree randi,
Heather, Denise, GAyle, Malana any comments
Teri, like youself, I spend an extreme amount of time thinking about the issues, being a long haul truck driver gives me PLENTY of time to think. But it's still only a part of my whole makeup as a person, I still enjoy a good book, good friends, a few laughs and most of all, Ann Margret!!!!!
Denise..pre transition did you find man saying things like that openly about genetic females?
ooops that should be men
Denise, I agree completely!! But then with a pic like you have, can you blame them dear!! *wink*
I must say to everyone at this time that I have severe mental illness issues which stand in the way of a relationship for me.
Diense I agree i have had number of men that would love to meet and mate and there is no real atarction then that
amazingly enough...I find that the males in the circle I am in do not really badmouth females...at least this is what I notice at work....
Allison, my heart skipped a beat when you mentioned Ann-Margaret. *grin*
Oh yes, Randi, having had the opportunity to be on the inside of male conversation, sex, sex, sex, I call it being in a continual testoserone fog.
Hmm, my previous relationships, this is where things get tough... ok I break it into a trip backwards in time, "S" is repelled somewhat by it, she guessed when I went to tell her about my "problem" before I could tell her, this was after our relationship had dwindled anyway, and seems she has even less time to acknoledge me in a quickie pass-by now more than before (she used to get into a quick 2 minute chit-chat, now, it's about 2 seconds!) Here's the funny part, she was into lesbianism at one time long before we met. Ok before her there was "T", I think she was of an open enough mind to accept gay relationships, but I don't think it would have been the thing for her, she and I never really were very serious about each other though, there was an age factor that bothered her, she was 5 years younger, I know, big deal right? To her it was. (BTW: "S" was 11 years older, I have nothing against age), Now for the furthest back "M", my first love, I honestly don't know, there was no actual relationship between the two of us, and this was about 1980, so much has changed in mentalities that I can't even fathom what she'd be like now.
Gayle...what I can say here is that even if Allie and I were not engaged I would be in a relationship with a fellow T
No denise that is male ego speaking is all
Comments from relationshipless me..I'm too busy w/ the Desenex that Kimberly passed me! *giggle*
any ISP who can't keep the connection open should be hung up by their garters and whipped!!!!
Kim when I was in college I think 'c' would have accepted because she was/is bi...the others including 'k' may have but only on an intellectual level
Interesting Gayle, kind of chuckling, guess I never had any of that.
Allison now now.....ISP murder is still illegal
I know Randi thats great to .. if you cna find happiness thats all that counts.
Hello!!..........Hmmmmm well , I know that I am in a relationship I have been in for 8 years and she has seen me into transition and probably through the RLT but after that things become real iffy and I geuss we'll work on that when we get there ...
Gayle I agree...and this also becomes more common in male oriented or dominated places
Let me know when ISP murder becomes legal, mine has this stupid 2 hour cut-off, I have 75 minutes till I get cut and have to reconnect
Hi, Arwen! Good to see you again, dear.
Randi, it may be illegal, but we can get the laws changed. Besides, in duck season, we shoot ducks, in deer season, we shoot deers, in bear season, we shoot bears, in tourist season, why not...
Kimberly thats better than mine that works on a random cutoff time **gigle**
Hi all.... Relationships?... arrhggh...
Arwen thanks for coming in hon!!!!!!!!**HUGGGSS****Do you think that she will after all that you are currently going through?
Well, going to have to go, but for the record, I have no SO, not interested based on my experience so far, won't even consider it anyway till I'm complete. Maybe I'll just be a virgin all my life when it comes to that. Nite all, see you again. *hugs*
Annie sis **HUGGGGGGGGSSS****** how are you...pull up a keyboard hon!!
No one has talked about the added risks of T's trying to build any kind of realtionship, I think its funny when I hear GG's complaining about how hard it is to find the right relationship, and men would agree if they were honest...isn't it evem harder for us??
I know Randi.
Randi/Gayle I agree sex is more the topic of conversation in male orientated employment, like truck driving, it drives me crazy ( no pun intended)
**Denise** HUGGGGSS!!!! Take care, hon!!!!
Bye Denise, see you later on I hope.
Randi I really don't know , She's been a godsend and is and will be my best friend but basically I am sorta asking her to change her sexual orientation and thats a bit much to ask or expect from anyone , so we both decided a long while back to just make it one day at a time and see what happens ....
oops, ...tryin to keep my yap shut tonight!!!
Malana good point.....do you feel that when some of us build up false expectations of what a relationship cann be??
No Malana...you brought up a darn good point
Malana thats true and its funny that the number of t's that are in relationships with other T's .....
hello, what is the topic this evening?
anyone else?
I had a couple of relationships where the guy didnt know, but pre-op these were destined to fail, but what I got I liked! I'm still a child in the relationship arena. A virgin too, but that's life...
I think there is a trap ther, Randi! I think of myself as very vulnerable right now to anyone..and if I fit somwhere before, where do I fit now.....I don't think anyone really wants a relationship based exclusively on sex. But I've been wrong before!!
Pamela...we are talking about relationships
I was laid over in Montreal the other day with my driving partner, he doesn't know anything yet. We were watching HBO and they had these 2 very attractive lesbian porno stars on a show, he's all hot and bothered about the whole thing, soon enough, they get out of the bathtub and low and behold, they are pre-ops, I almost split a gut laughing at the look on his face. I asked him if he still wanted to get to know them, he say NO WAY, to me, it means that on appearance alone, he was only interested in what was between their legs, and what they could do for him. Amusing, but very sad too.
Annie, you had a sexual relationship with a man pre operative?
Annie honey....born again virginity here only because my partner and I are waiting for her post op status
Allison it's not only the truckers that think that way ...
sorry had to step out
interesting thought
Gayle, definately not just truckers, but very definately truckers LOL
the most liberal within reason that I ahve run into have been computer-geek types
Pamela... no. I dated one guy for a few weeks.. the other for 6 months. It was never sexual.. could never be....Randi... What guy is going to beleive a 31 year old virgin!!
I dont think that all men are phobic about the community, however sex is on their minds constantly. There have been several straight men over in the kaffe haus that seem pretty nice guys, not sexual at all. The enjoy talking about any topic, it doesnt bother them at all.
what do you mean randi???
Okay, hope this isn't taken offensively by anyone. If as a pre-op, I have a relationship with another pre-op, or a GM, does that make me bi, gay, hetro, of just really confused??
Arwen....you are very fortunate dear.....can you share with us how you and your SO have been able to work things out so far??
i agree pamela
Yes, Randi... and also students of various subjects. It's the important element of the open mind that's needed. Unfortunatley, once people settle and do the family thing... most people's mind turn to concrete...
no that just makes you human hon! Doc......meaning that those who tend to be a tad more educated than the rest of the populace are those who will understand more...
Be back later...{{{HUGS}}}
Allison... depends on the gender identity. If it was two MTFs, they would be lesbian; two FTM, gay male, .. etc.
Anie I'm 46 year old vergin *smile* ..... wb doc
Annie that is very true
Randi, I think it was Masters & Johnson who proved that the higher educated an individual is, the more willing they ae to accept alternate lifestyles.
Bye Teri HUGS
me 37
I'm currently post operative, and have been for about 2 years now. Before having SRS i had met a guy who didnt seem to mind about my transgenderism. He wanted to have a relationship (even sexual) Some men just dont see that we are men on the inside, but really are women on the outside.
Later Teri **HUGGGGSS***
Personally, I'm not attracted to other TSs (that I've met!), but I have an open mind. I am very warm and close towards my girlfriends, but I'm not interested in anything sexual... guys are a different matter. It's a learning process for someon like me who is only going through puberty at a late stage
You are fortunate Pamala
education yes because they have been exposed to more, have been taught to think and and accept ideas then chose weather to accept or reject it
understood Annie
I'm currently post operative, and have been for about 2 years now. Before having SRS i had met a guy who didnt seem to mind about my transgenderism. He wanted to have a relationship (even sexual) Some men just dont see that we are men on the inside, but really are women on the outside.
pamela i agree with you. I have found that most men attracted to T's do not see them as men, but see them as female for there femine qualities
RandiI am fortunate , but then again Paula knew of my gender problem before our marriage and that helped . I think one thing that helped is I never had to over come years of deceit nor have to worry about hiding a past . On the other hand she did marry a male and ...... well this is a major problem that has caused some problems but we have been honest with each other and see the same therapist at the clinic , also we both set the pace of the therapy so as no one feels left out . Another words we both compromise and work real hard to maintain a relationship and this is hard to do even without the gender issue but with it itjust complicates it that much more .....
Sorry for booting tht twice.
There are some educated bigots around (the Conservative party springs to mind)
ok open question..would any of prefer intimacy or their first intimacey with a fellow T or with a genetic male???[or gentic female]
doc, as far as men attracted to the femine qualities of a pre-op, in a relationship, they are going to be faced with the stark reality of the male quantity thought.
Annie one can argue those are abberations
Some men (boys)think that we are homosexual, that dont get to the bottom of transgenderism.
M&J; also found that >95% of men that have sexual relations with a TS, when asked if they consider themselves straight, gay or bi all see and consider themselves straight
Hmm mm good question Randi .... can not answer that one ...
Annie thats my oldest brother your talking aboutand he is a very educated bigot and it gets damn infuriating ....
Randi, when post-op, I would prefer it to be with a GM. Until that time, they don't get near me !!!!
But even the best graduates around seem to go into brain-dead mode when they start a family. I'm not against families in general, but it just seems that people's priorites change when children and spouses are involved. Selfishness within the family and not outside seems to be very common, and this can extend to tolerance, or lack of it, too.
Arwen that is key hon
allsion those men realize also that there are male qualities as well.
Mine was at first with a fellow sister who was pre-operative. I felt more comfortable in this knowing what i was going to expect when the big day came. It made my first time a little easier psychologically.
My first sexual relationship will , I hope be with a GM. Could be someone I already know, which would be nice.
very true annie good point
Annie, a lot of Gm and GG's feel that as soon as married, they no longer have to work at anything, including the relationship or outside interests, just slide along the path to divorce.
Annie very good point....Allison, understood......here if the SRS were in my future...I would rather do so with a fellow T.......and this is assuming I was still single
Randi, "assuming you were still single" ?? LOL Now were getting into morals LOLOL
it is a tough decision, I dont think that there is a wrong answer. However, the truth about your gender if s-x is on your mind.
i thought that you were fighting to be accept as a women so why would you stay within the T community if what your fighting for is to be accepted in the so called regular comm
Well ladies, thanks for the chatting. Hope to see you all very soon. Goodnight.
why are we so afraid to be with other TGs??
Allison that is very true....it is rare that the spouses will work hard on the relationship and other things associated with it if they know that they have roped someone in
Who was that directed to doc gary?
True Doc. I find it very hard to be around other TSs. I just feel very self-concious and a bit frightened. It's OK here because it's not PHYSICAL, but even I find the whole issue of TS-ism a little odd, and I'm one myself!!!.... *sigh*
Thats another thing thats been on my mind what if after I get the plumbing installed correctly I may be heterosexual and even if not I'm sure I will want to try everything out at least once with a GM just to see...
Kaya, I'm not afraid to be with anothe TG, I was just wondering if it is an "easy" way out of having to face the non-gender crowd. (their numbers seem to be dwindling thought ) LOL
well you know what that meant..my relationship right now is very important.....
pamela just to the general populist
Evening Kaya
I can't believe you have trouble being around other TSs
Randi....think I'd only be interested in t's and GG's, just an individual thing, tho.
but I got your point Allison **HUGGGSS**
Hi Randi, excuse me for butting in..
Arwen, don't young boys and girls going through puberty, at least try on both sexes to some degree, remember playing Dr. with your friends sister?? I think it's the same for us, as we grow and mature as women, we want to try all flavors of ice cream.
malana if TS is genetic male why ok with a TS and GG but not a GM?